RACING AND GAMING - CARD COUNTER CLASSIFICATION

Dr BROWN - Is the Minister for Racing and Gaming aware that card counting has been made legal in the New Jersey casino as a result of a supreme court directive? He has informed us that 35 people are so classified in Tasmania. Why is there no appeal, against such classification? Is it true that blackjack is the only game at the casino which involves skill, that card counters are in fact people who are skilful in that game and that if it is prohibited the casino will no longer have a right to attract people there to try their skill?

Mr PEARSALL - There are probably many members who would know more about the skills required in gambling games than I would.

Opposition members laughing.

Mr PEARSALL - I do not want to comment to any great extent on that part of the member's question except to say that I suppose the other games are based on numerical calculation concerning the law of averages whereas blackjack at least requires some skill. If anybody studied the games played there he would probably find that the member's suggestion would be correct; however I would not be in a position to confirm that in absolute terms.

I am also not aware of the assertion the member makes that card counting has been made legal in New Jersey. I understand the situation in New Jersey - and I must admit this is information that has been passed on to me but I believe it to be accurate - is that until fairly recently card counters were in fact banned from the casinos and that as a result of those bans being applied there was civil litigation which finally was determined in favour of the card counters in that they could not be banned from the casinos.

The situation is of course identical here: whilst card counters are recognised and whilst certain actions have been taken to endeavour to minimise the effect of card counting, such as experiments with double-sided cards and so on, there is certainly no suggestion - and to my knowledge never has been - that card counters should be banned from participating in blackjack at the casinos.

I think that covers the situation raised by the member. A number of people have certainly been recognised as card counters at Wrest Point, and that is a fact of life. Let me say to the member that, apart from New Jersey, my understanding is that almost every other casino in the world bars people it recognises as card counters.

Dr BROWN - I thank the Minister for Racing and Gaming for his enlightenment regarding New Jersey. Is he aware that a number of people classified as card counters in Tasmania have in fact been banned from one or other casino for differing periods without written reason for that or without any appeal?

I go back to my former question, putting it in a different way. Would he consider giving such people the right of appeal against being classified as card counters or being prohibited from the casino on another pretext?

Mr PEARSALL - I want to make it perfectly clear that the innuendo in the member's question - that people have been banned from the casino because they are card counters - is incorrect. My understanding, from correspondence I have seen and information I have received, is that there have been occasions on which card counters have been banned from the casino - as have other people - because of their behaviour and not because of the fact that they are or are not card counters. Where people are put out of the casinos because of behavioural problems, I do not believe -

Mr Lowe - Do you mean by intimidating other patrons?

Mr PEARSALL - I mean general behavioural problems, whether it is coming into conflict with security people - I cannot remember the exact circumstances under which some of these prohibitions have occurred -

Mr Lowe - I have heard there had been some intimidation.

Mr PEARSALL - All I am saying is that a number of people, card counters and others, have from time to time been barred from attending both casinos because of their behaviour at a certain time. I do not believe that it is appropriate under those circumstances to allow appeals. I think one of the basic concepts of the licensing laws for many years has been that a licensee is required to maintain an orderly place and has the right to have people ejected, and in fact barred, from his premises if he believes their presence will have some deleterious effect, on the operation of that particular licensed establishment. Therefore I think it is not reasonable to suggest that there ought to be appeals on those grounds.

Let me just emphasise again that my clear understanding of this is that there has never been a person banned from a casino because he is a card counter. The only time people have been refused admission or told that they are not welcome back, be they card counters or others, is because of their behavioural problems. As I have said, that is my understanding of the situation.